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  • Re: The Conspiracy Of Conspiracy Theorizing
    s a new poll showing how widespread conspiratorial thinking has become in society in this case American society I would hope for greater sanity in other Western democracies by the way though I know that the conspiratorial imagination is not a solely American ill http tinyurl com on64b4g Jerry I believe that labeling something a conspiracy theory prior to analysis of its content only serves to obfuscate the truth and has nothing to do with the validity of the theory itself It s simply a pronouncement or a label and not a logical argument If after going through the facts one determines that there is no validity to the conspiracy theory then one can provide it with an appropriate label This article is a perfect example of this A set of theories are introduced and then immediately branded conspiracy theories the products of insane and paranoid minds There is no discussion or review of the facts but it appears that this is not the point The point is to completely marginalize anyone who has those points of view and to eliminate discussion and debate not encourage it If any attitude is dangerous to a free society it s the one demonstrated in this article The moral of the story Be frightened Be very frightened Seriously folks I have cited Richard Hofstadter s influential essay The Paranoid Style in American Politics setting the conspiratorial mentality in historical context in a previous posting The URL is cited in my previous posting on this thread Two points worth making about Hofstadter 1916 1970 1 Bill Watterson creator of the late much missed newspaper cartoon series Calvin and Hobbes was a political science major as was I Like every one of us in that generation he was assigned to read Hofstadter s The American

    Original URL path: http://ufoupdateslist.com/2013/oct/m07-002.shtml (2016-02-13)
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  • Re: The Conspiracy Of Conspiracy Theorizing
    is minimal on its best days though no one would question their capacity to spot imaginary ones that you have the right to theorize about conspiracies the wilder the better without being called a conspiracy theorist The rest of us politely disagree Theorizing about conspiracies is part of human nature Some theories attract public censure more than others My view is simple if you don t want to be called a conspiracy theorist don t be one An old friend of mine puts it best In an odd way the conspiracy nuts are more optimistic than I am if there were just a specific group rationally planning and causing all the world s ills theoretically it could be hunted out and destroyed On the other hand I believe the world is full of idiots and incompetents who will inevitably f ck things up In any event I have now repeatedly violated my longstanding personal belief learned through hard experience that it is futile to argue with someone inclined to conspiracy theories I leave it to UpDates readers to judge who has the better of the argument and I move on Meantime whenever I read your UpDates posts in the future Ray I will remember where you re coming from I ve kept out of this discussion until now perhaps because Jerry has already theorized in an earlier exchange that I must be a CIA agent given my views on 9 11 I guess an officially sanctioned conspiracy theory is acceptable to the conspiracy theory theory crowd even if it requires violations of the laws of physics I m a little puzzled how Jerry is able to create a theory of experience anomalies yet hides his head in the sand when it comes to the actions of possibly nefarious powers that

    Original URL path: http://ufoupdateslist.com/2013/oct/m07-003.shtml (2016-02-13)
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  • Re: The Conspiracy Of Conspiracy Theorizing
    hash that conspiracy theory canard as if it were true and therefore dangerous to society What could be more dangerous than the real and proven conspiracies many murderous and often war mongering and all designed to keep the public in ignorance that we already know about And don t forget there is an unknown number of conspiracies in existence that we can only suspect or guess at snip In any event I have now repeatedly violated my longstanding personal belief learned through hard experience that it is futile to argue with someone inclined to conspiracy theories I leave it to UpDates readers to judge who has the better of the argument and I move on Meantime whenever I read your UpDates posts in the future Ray I will remember where you re coming from Thanks Jerry Your remarks reminded me of a facility available so this afternoon when trying to list the music I liked and being a busy person finding my mind a blank went to my website where I d already recorded it as is was While there browsed a little and found that where I and others had forecast conspiracies most first recorded a decade or so ago they ve since been confirmed some much larger and more inter linked than even I had expected BTW your resorting to ad hominem tactics confirms what I we already thought about the conspiracy theorists canard I e it s just another ad hominem ploy to be used when logical arguments fail For definition and use of that term see www perceptions couk com baloney detect txt and www perceptions couk com present html ad ho And if you want to read a more realistic review of conspiracies etc maybe try Peter Knight s Conspiracy Culture where he says among

    Original URL path: http://ufoupdateslist.com/2013/oct/m07-004.shtml (2016-02-13)
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  • Re: The Conspiracy Of Conspiracy Theorizing
    out of this discussion until now perhaps because Jerry has already theorized in an earlier exchange that I must be a CIA agent given my views on 9 11 I guess an officially sanctioned conspiracy theory is acceptable to the conspiracy theory theory crowd even if it requires violations of the laws of physics I m a little puzzled how Jerry is able to create a theory of experience anomalies yet hides his head in the sand when it comes to the actions of possibly nefarious powers that be I suppose there is some consistency In both cases he proposes one should accept the anomalies without trying to understand why they happened To think that I started this thread intending to protect the good name of ufologists against the false charge that serious interest in UFOs renders one a conspiracy theorist I d hate to think I was wrong but so far the evidence on UpDates though I realize from a very small percentage of Listfolk suggests I may have been excessively charitable I have no idea where William gets this crazy notion that I hide my head in the sand about official misdeeds which I have mentioned in every posting I ve made on this subject and which anybody who knows me would recognize as beyond laughable That s why I make every effort not to debate conspiracy theorists they have trouble reading and comprehending I ve noticed That aside I will respond to the last quoted paragraph where William professes himself to be a little puzzled More attentive reading would have solved the mystery As I have written about experience anomalies I have observed in clear prose that the answers are almost certainly unavailable to us because they lie well beyond current knowledge therefore it s impossible at

    Original URL path: http://ufoupdateslist.com/2013/oct/m08-001.shtml (2016-02-13)
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  • Re: The Conspiracy Of Conspiracy Theorizing
    Dickenson r dickenson nul To post nul Date Fri 4 Oct 2013 12 21 30 0100 Subject Re The Conspiracy Of Conspiracy Theorizing snip And don t forget there is an unknown number of conspiracies in existence that we can only suspect or guess at Hi Ray The item I cited was a poll conducted by a reputable professional organization with a good track record It was not something made up by agents of a sinister conspiracy tt certainly comports with my personal experience It s one reason I try to stay out of bars The joints I learned long ago are lousy with conspiracy theorists That s one reason the phrase barstool ranter was invented A funny story Blonde enters a bar as Jerome Clark leaves it She orders a triple Scotch on the rocks As she starts sipping her drink she notices that all the wide eyed clients were wearing a tin foil hat and are now removing them She asks What gives The guy on the next stool about to take a sip of his pauses and says Well it s all about Jerry We would want to deceive him and since his mind is already made

    Original URL path: http://ufoupdateslist.com/2013/oct/m08-002.shtml (2016-02-13)
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  • Re: The Conspiracy Of Conspiracy Theorizing
    that we can only suspect or guess at Hi Ray The item I cited was a poll conducted by a reputable professional organization with a good track record It was not something made up by agents of a sinister conspiracy tt certainly comports with my personal experience It s one reason I try to stay out of bars The joints I learned long ago are lousy with conspiracy theorists That s one reason the phrase barstool ranter was invented A funny story Blonde enters a bar as Jerome Clark leaves it She orders a triple Scotch on the rocks As she starts sipping her drink she notices that all the wide eyed clients were wearing a tin foil hat and are now removing them She asks What gives The guy on the next stool about to take a sip of his pauses and says Well it s all about Jerry We would want to deceive him and since his mind is already made up why bother him with the facts Almost in spite of myself I am impressed Someone who acknowledges that he finds wisdom in the pronouncements of barstool ranters is a rarely honest and self aware conspiracy theorist

    Original URL path: http://ufoupdateslist.com/2013/oct/m08-003.shtml (2016-02-13)
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  • Re: The Conspiracy Of Conspiracy Theorizing
    me would recognize as beyond laughable That s why I make every effort not to debate conspiracy theorists they have trouble reading and comprehending I ve noticed In scientific research it is okay to generate a hypothesis and then look for facts that support it But if the same is done in the social political arena the theory is often denigrated as a conspiracy theory without regard for supporting facts Sometimes I agree with what Jerry says then he comes out with something I cannot agree with so I m not sure where he stands on any particular issue I like to think that my conclusions are fact based but apparently Jerry does not have the same facts or he rejects them In the case of 9 11 for example I think there are indisputable physical data that say the officially sanctioned theory is wrong Jerry apparently does not know about this data or does not believe it So we accuse each other of having conspiracy theories instead of agreeing there are facts to discuss Jerry says Conspiracy theories which as I ve repeatedly observed have nothing to do with real life misdeeds and conspiracies are the magical thinking of the paranoid and the poorly informed But he never mentions what criteria he uses to decide what are real life misdeeds and conspiracies He says the promotion of wild eyed conspiracy theories is a plot to draw attention from real conspiracies But wild eyed is again a matter of his opinion I get the impression that he believes a real conspiracy is one that has the official stamp of approval It s easier to let some authority figure do the critical thinking He also says Historians investigative journalists prosecutors police officers and even ordinary citizens have managed to uncover bad behavior including yes actual criminal and political conspiracies without being accused by any credible source of excessive imagination and unbridled paranoia In the end truth outs and facts tell the story Yet in some cases e g 9 11 apparent bad behaviour is uncovered but is ignored by the powers that be including the main stream media Then it becomes a power struggle instead of a rational discussion and the name calling starts That aside I will respond to the last quoted paragraph where William professes himself to be a little puzzled More attentive reading would have solved the mystery As I have written about experience anomalies I have observed in clear prose that the answers are almost certainly unavailable to us because they lie well beyond current knowledge therefore it s impossible at present to explain their causation We can only try to get some sense of how they work on those who undergo their effects A more careful reading should make it clear that I was puzzled by the apparent contradiction expressed in that sentence not by your position on experience anomalies Unlike CTers I make no claim to false knowledge I can live with uncertainty and ambiguity

    Original URL path: http://ufoupdateslist.com/2013/oct/m08-004.shtml (2016-02-13)
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  • Re: The Conspiracy Of Conspiracy Theorizing
    observed have nothing to do with real life misdeeds and conspiracies are the magical thinking of the paranoid and the poorly informed But he never mentions what criteria he uses to decide what are real life misdeeds and conspiracies He says the promotion of wild eyed conspiracy theories is a plot to draw attention from real conspiracies But wild eyed is again a matter of his opinion I get the impression that he believes a real conspiracy is one that has the official stamp of approval It s easier to let some authority figure do the critical thinking He also says Historians investigative journalists prosecutors police officers and even ordinary citizens have managed to uncover bad behavior including yes actual criminal and political conspiracies without being accused by any credible source of excessive imagination and unbridled paranoia In the end truth outs and facts tell the story Yet in some cases e g 9 11 apparent bad behaviour is uncovered but is ignored by the powers that be including the main stream media Then it becomes a power struggle instead of a rational discussion and the name calling starts That aside I will respond to the last quoted paragraph where William professes himself to be a little puzzled More attentive reading would have solved the mystery As I have written about experience anomalies I have observed in clear prose that the answers are almost certainly unavailable to us because they lie well beyond current knowledge therefore it s impossible at present to explain their causation We can only try to get some sense of how they work on those who undergo their effects A more careful reading should make it clear that I was puzzled by the apparent contradiction expressed in that sentence not by your position on experience anomalies Unlike CTers I make no claim to false knowledge I can live with uncertainty and ambiguity Again who decides what is declared as false knowledge Hopefully it is based on more than one s cognitive dissonance Conspiracy theorists engage in a different form of argument namely that complex labyrinthian conspiracies by their nature invisible to the usual run of historians social scientists journalists and law enforcement operate in this world and can be exposed and understood by those who hold the key to the secrets Your list of occupations should include physicists and engineers who can reason about any violations of the laws of physics These were notably missing in the 9 11 commission investigation such as it was The conspiracies are traditionally represented as human political plots On the other hand it is true some students of the phenomenon have argued that at least some can be traced to older occult doctrines see for example George Johnson s illuminating 1983 book Architects of Fear It s also possible to recognize in CTs a secular variety of old fashioned demonology Since your theory about experience anomalies takes no position on causation perhaps demons should still be on your list of

    Original URL path: http://ufoupdateslist.com/2013/oct/m09-001.shtml (2016-02-13)
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